Talk:Somali Civil War (2009–present)

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From reading Constitutional crisis in Somalia, I am under the impression that Puntland has explicitly declared independence and that Jubaland implicitly has as both have severed ties with the Somali federal government. If this is the case, then the belligerents in the infobox, the map, and the timeline need to be updated.

On the topic of the belligerents, I also think that Somaliland should be listed as a belligerent. GigaDerp (talk) 16:50, 11 November 2024 (UTC)

Considering a battle was just fought between the federal government's Somali National Army and Jubaland's Jubaland Dervish Force, it warrants listing them as separate belligerents. (Also, I was recently renamed from GigaDerp) Sir Ross ★▀▀ (talk) 16:19, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but they shouldn't be marked as "fully separated from Somalia", I haven't seen anything that says Puntland and Jubaland want to be independent countries, from what i've read, they declared de-facto independence in protest of the actions of Somalia's president. A shaded line would do just fine. You can ask the creator of the map, Guardafuuii, but they haven't really edited for a while.(Nevermind, they just started editing again.) Zabezt (talk) 16:49, 3 January 2025 (UTC)

Using the Myanmar Civil War as a basis, I think different colors would still be useful as long as the color key lists them as being on the same side. Sir Ross ★▀▀ (talk) 16:09, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Okay fair, but I still suggest speaking to @Guardafuuii for changes to the map. Zabezt (talk) 19:06, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

Yeah, I’ll try to do it today if I have the time. Guardafuuii (talk) 21:29, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

No rush. Zabezt (talk) 23:55, 6 January 2025 (UTC)

I know that the map is a pretty controversial thing, so it may be inappropriate of me to put in my suggestion, but I'm doing so anyway. There are a few things added that are not up to Wikipedia map standards, so just disregard those if you're using my map as a reference. Some explanations for a few things: - Jubaland shown as completely separate entity due to armed clashes between them and Somali forces - Puntland shown as "autonomous" entity due to lack of armed clashes (also, to my knowledge, Somali and Puntland forces still operate together sometimes) - Al-Shabaab area based on Critical Threats https://imgur.com/a/djzYjcC IdioticAnarchist (talk) 04:24, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Fyi there's already commons file absed on Critical Threats map File:Somali Civil War Critical Threats.png. Borysk5 (talk) 08:53, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

Well, I have a few issues regarding that one:

- No inclusion of Puntland and Jubaland

- Shows Al-Shabaab attack zones as a separate entity, which they shouldn't be IdioticAnarchist (talk) 19:40, 18 January 2025 (UTC)

As I had mentioned in the topic above this, I think a solution like the Myanmar civil war (2021–present) map works better as it shows distinct factions that are grouped together within the legend below the map.

This style is also present in the Syrian civil war infobox. Notably in the Syrian case, belligerence is not clarified as the Interim Government and Transitional Government are not listed together but are also not at odds. By not specifying allegiance, the factions can be listed without much controversy.

Using the current infobox style, having more colors within the Somalia divider for Jubaland and Puntland would accomplish the goal of showing allegiance while nuancing their autonomy. Sir Ross ★▀▀ (talk) 16:55, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

That was my aim when making the current infobox style. I'm still waiting on @Guardafuuii to actually separate Puntland and Jubaland from the rest of Somalia on the map. Zabezt (talk) 16:49, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

I forgot to mention that I was going to wait for the Puntland offensive to end so I could map it. But yeah I keep forgetting to split Jubaland lol Guardafuuii (talk) 19:59, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

The infobox is getting pretty big, plus many of other civil war infoboxes are starting to get templates, so should it be done? Zabezt (talk) 17:20, 29 January 2025 (UTC)

Support per @Zabezt infobox had grown too lengthy. QalasQalas (talk) 22:07, 23 February 2025 (UTC)

@Abzeronow @Replayerr @Wowzers122 @Guardafuuii @IdioticAnarchist @HetmanTheResearcher @Shadowwarrior8

The title speaks for itself, but the map has a lot of problems.

-I don’t know WHERE to exactly separate Puntland and Jubaland from Somalia (or what colors to use)

-I don’t know how to exactly fulfill @IdioticAnarchist’s request with Al-Shabaab’s attack zones. (Who should I group the attack zones with?)

-I don’t know what to do with the Islamic State.

-The Quality still isn’t great, I used an SVG converter. Zabezt (talk) 01:08, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

I'd shade Puntland and Jubaland slightly differently than Somalia since they are autonomous. As for Daesh, do they control any territory in Somalia? Abzeronow (talk) 01:17, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

ISIS has been in Somalia since 2015 in the Cal Miskaad Mountains, Puntland started an offensive against them a few months ago, So I'm kinda stuck on where to mark their territory, if that makes sense. Zabezt (talk) 01:20, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

They've lost 65% of their territory during the counteroffensive led by the Puntland Security Forces(PSF). Replayerr (talk) 12:00, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

Oppose - "Critical Threats Project" of the "American Enterprise Institute" (AEI) is not a reliable source and should not be used in wikipedia at all. AEI is an American right-wing neo-con propaganda organisation which is also a zionist think-tank that is rabidly pro-Netanyahu.

AEI is one of the core neo-conservative disinformation and lobbying fronts in the United States, and it was deeply involved in the Bush regime. They were fanatic advocates of the US invasion of Iraq and engaged in the dissemination of fake news conspiracy theories that favoured neo-con war-mongering agendas. AEI was also heavily involved in pushing and formulating numerous disastrous and criminal policies of the Bush regime during the US occupation of Iraq. (Sources: )

AEI has also been described as a far-right American group.

An academic documentation of the disinformation operations of this group is detailed in the book "The Assassins' Gate: America in Iraq" (publication date: 2005, publisher: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, isbn no.:9780374299637) written by George Packer.

It is very clear that maps released by AEI are heavily propagandistic, unreliable and totally inappropriate in an encyclopedia. They are bottom-tier disinformation sources and should never be used in mapping any of the conflicts in the world: be it in Somalia, Ukraine, Syria or elsewhere. Shadowwarrior8 (talk) 15:26, 8 February 2025 (UTC)

Weird, you seemed tolerable of Critical threats in the RfC. Zabezt (talk) 17:18, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Their maps have been the basis of many other articles on Wikipedia such as Gaza, Syria and so on. If you have a problem with Critical Threats then take it up at HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 22:06, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Wow, really? I mean, with Shadowwarrior8's reasoning, that would explain why the Gaza war map shows Israel's "Furthest advance in Gaza Strip" with no big hints at all that Hamas currently controls it. I'm still gonna support Critical threats, because it's the best source we have for what's happening in Somalia, but now I'll also have to question its legitimacy. Zabezt (talk) 22:25, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

I think the problem is more with how the map is being used. From what I see, this map is only from the Israeli perspective, since I do not see an equivalent map for Palestine, which no doubt would show conflicting regions of control. The ISW's map for the Ukraine War also shows former territories occupied by Russia, yet I do not see anyone making the argument that this means ISW is actually a Russian disinformation machine. It seems true that Israeli forces, at one point, occupied the regions covered as light blue, and I did not see anything from Shadowwarrior8 that would tell me anything being claimed was wrong. It seems instead that the areas marked as "Maximum Extent of Israeli Advance" are being overemphasized on the Wikipedia page, since ISW only shows a light blue area over a white area, which is far less of a visual difference than the red to light blue contrast shown on the Gaza War page. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 22:38, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

None of the articles or books you cited say anything about Critical Threats, only their parent company. You need sources explicitly refuting the maps produced by Critical Threats, as that is what we are using this source for. Until you do that this rant above me is no more than your opinion.

Their maps have been the basis of many other articles on Wikipedia such as Gaza War page, Syrian Civil War page, Islamist Insurgency in Burkina Faso, and so on. They provide detailed maps and their maps are well sourced, they are an excellent source for modern conflicts regardless of any supposed bias they have. If you have a problem with Critical Threats then take it up at WP:RSN since your opinion does not override the usage of their maps on all these other pages. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 22:16, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Two more things I should add after thinking through this some more:

1. Critical Threats was founded in 2009, so every single link you provided barring the very first is useless since they were made years before the maps started to be made (how can The Guardian, in the year 2003, comment on a map's accuracy from the year 2023?)

2. WP:SALON.COM falls under WP:MREL and should be cited. In any case, the Salon article is from before 2009 anyways so point 1. still applies. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 23:28, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

I think "attack zones" and "contested support zones" should not be shown. From what I know, Wikipedia SVG maps typically simplify lines of control when blurry to make it easier for people to understand. I think that only Al-Shabaab control zones and Al-Shabaab zones of influence (support zones) should be shown on map to make it less complex. Also, I'd shade Punt/Jubaland as where their territories are (map in this article). I'd shade Puntland a similar colour to the Somali Federal Government (SFG) considering there hasn't been any reported clashes between the two. Jubaland I'd shade a different colour (like the blue on the map I suggested) considering there has been clashes between them and SFG. IdioticAnarchist (talk) 16:23, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

I still have a few questions if you don't mind; What should I do with the contested/attack zones? Should I group the attack zones with Al-Shabaab? Should I group the contested support zones with Somalia proper? And for whatever colors we use, (lets say Jubaland is blue) should the Al-Shabaab zones be tinted blue? The map already doesn't show any Government controlled territory in Jubaland, so giving representation to Jubaland at all would be difficult. Zabezt (talk) 17:18, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Update: I think we should make Puntland purple and Jubaland green, to match the detailed map. Zabezt (talk) 17:22, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. However, we should preemptively ensure we are coloring in a way that accommodates visually impaired users (such as color blindness). I am not well versed on accessibility coloring but there is some resources on WP:COLOR. Sir Ross ★▀▀ (talk) 14:29, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

Sorry I'm just now replying, I've been a tad busy the past few days! I think the contested/attack zones should be grouped into Somalia proper. Also, Al-Shabaab in Jubaland should be shown tinted blue (or whatever colour you make Jubaland). IdioticAnarchist (talk) 17:26, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

I agree. First I appreciate Zabezt for making this map, this is a valuable contribution. With that being said, showing every zone that Critical Threats does is too complicated for a Wikipedia article. Reading the definitions provided by Critical Threats the difference between "Support Zone" and "Control Zone" does not appear to be great. Meanwhile "Attack Zones", while suffering from Al-Shabaab attacks, do still appear to be under government control, so should be shown as red. Meanwhile "Contested Support Zones" seem to be under no clear control so ca be shown as white. Something like this map of the Angolan Civil War would be fine for Somalia; territory controlled by two forces with a contested zone to reflect the fluidic frontlines of these modern wars. HetmanTheResearcher (talk) 22:24, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the input! However I think we still need more, I'm still waiting for @IdioticAnarchist to answer my questions, and we also need to get a map we can all agree on. (Well, maybe not Shadowwarrior8.) Zabezt (talk) 22:38, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

Update: I made 2 maps.

One based on suggestions by @HetmanTheResearcher, and This one based on suggestions by @IdioticAnarchist.

Now, first we fix them if needed, (as in more suggestions) and then either we pick one, or combine the two in some way. Zabezt (talk) 16:51, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

bad idea? Zabezt (talk) 16:11, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

I feel as there should be major map updates due to the 2025 Shabelle Attacks and the recent capturing of Balad, Somalia RowanJ LP (talk) 16:37, 1 March 2025 (UTC)

i suggest talking to the creator of the map currently up. Zabezt (talk) 16:13, 4 March 2025 (UTC)

Can I replace the current map with the newer, more accurate one? Malka d-Ashur (talk) 15:52, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Can we see the map? Zabezt (talk) 15:57, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

File:Somali Civil War Map on the 8th March 2025.svg - Wikipedia Malka d-Ashur (talk) 18:04, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Alright, just added new map and updated caption to "Approximate map of the current phase of the Somali Civil War as of 8 March 2025". Malka d-Ashur (talk) 18:12, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

Created file Somali Civil War Map on the 8th March 2025.svg on wikimedia commons based on the 2025 Shabelle offensive, should it be added? RowanJ LP (talk) 21:28, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Zabezt (talk) 15:23, 18 March 2025 (UTC)

just added it Malka d-Ashur (talk) 18:14, 21 March 2025 (UTC)

On the map, Isaaq clan coastal territory in Sanaag (around Heis and Maydh) are marked as under Somali control. They should be marked as under Somaliland, along with Jidali which Somaliland took over earlier in January. 𐒈𐒚𐒐𐒆𐒛𐒒 Gebagebo (talk) 02:44, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

Balad, Adale and other towns free too https://hornobserver.com/articles/3248/Somalia-President-holds-series-of-meetings-with-local-elders-in-Adale-Middle-Shabelle-region-to-intensify-Shabab-offensive